Programming Forums > Application Development > Java

Game_Ender · May 27th, 2006, 3:04 PM

Under the hood of some Java VM's the references are actually raw pointers. This is how the JamVM works.

DaWei · May 27th, 2006, 3:25 PM

Pointers are a way of accessing memory indirectly. They are implemented in the machine language for a large majority of microprocessors. One can screw up with them at any level, with varying ill effects. The alternative is to have someone write you a language and bury them well beyond your reach, at a cost of efficiency. In some respects, this Big Brother approach is a boon.

ShadowAssasin · Jun 13th, 2006, 11:52 PM

@Dawei: 1984?

java hides all the great details like pointers into wrappers so that we won't need to worry ourselves with them, in effect, "dumbing us down". Yes, java and windows make you dumb and dependent (more than their alternatives do). Whenever you get a chance, do your friends programming homework for them, they'll become dumb and dependent on you. Learn the details first, then "reward" yourself with using an abstract language like java or python.

Mad_guy · Jun 13th, 2006, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin

Yes, java and windows make you dumb and dependent (more than their alternatives do).

What a complete load of trash.

ShadowAssasin · Jun 14th, 2006, 12:11 AM

Don't get Mad, guy. Its one of those jokes that are both true but also taken to an extreme.
Have you ever tried to use the generated gui code using c#? do you think its beneficial to use it without first learning how to build a gui yourself? (it can actually be more confusing) Like I said, reward yourself with abstraction when you've mastered the details. ex: if you took assembly before learning C++, pointers wouldn't seem that complex at all.

Mad_guy · Jun 14th, 2006, 3:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin

Don't get Mad, guy. Its one of those jokes that are both true but also taken to an extreme.

It's hardly true, I've been using windows virtually the entire time I've been programming, and I will state here that I am not as dumb as most people stereotype windows users to be. I've also used countless languages that also didn't have things like pointers (such as java itself. I even started on a dynamically typed language.) No, I might not smarter than you or a lot of other people here, but saying windows/java/whatever makes you dumb is just a plain lie.

Quote:

Have you ever tried to use the generated gui code using c#?

Yep. Good feature to use if your IDE has it, saves me (and probably countless others) plenty of time.

Quote:

do you think its beneficial to use it without first learning how to build a gui yourself? (it can actually be more confusing) Like I said, reward yourself with abstraction when you've mastered the details. ex: if you took assembly before learning C++, pointers wouldn't seem that complex at all.

I totally agree with that. The only thing I was pointing out is that Java/Windows/whatever doesn't make you dumb, because I *don't* agree with that.

ShadowAssasin · Jun 14th, 2006, 9:35 AM

lol, I guess thats why you're call the "mad_guy". I just told you that its one of those jokes taken to the extreme. If we were speaking face to face you would've probably knew that but when people read letters, email, etc. its hard to tell in what context the other person is speaking. I really didn't mean they actually make you dumb; here is the essential message of the JOKE(its a joke btw): It's not good to learn anything in abstract without foundational principals(if you want to be good at it). Java and Windows are notoriously known for hiding lower level details from users.
I'm not really saying they actually make you dumb( lazy, but not dumb

).

DaWei · Jun 14th, 2006, 9:40 AM

Quote:

It's not good to learn anything in abstract without foundational principals(if you want to be good at it).

I would question the absolute validity of this statement. One doesn't have to know how to design a top-notch power saw to be a top-notch user.

ShadowAssasin · Jun 14th, 2006, 1:01 PM

Yeah, thats true but too bad your example isn't congruent with the argument.
I think it makes more sense this way.....

manual saw user is to power saw user
as
low level language programmer is to high level language programmer

power saw designer -> power saw user //doesn't correspond here.

Anyway, the simple point is, you'll most likely become better if you have a stronger foundation.

King · Jun 14th, 2006, 1:06 PM

For the C# example given above, I think it would be better to learn how to do the GUI stuff with the tools provided, then dig into the lower level guts of it to tweak it after you have a good handle on the high level stuff.

May 27th, 2006, 3:25 PM	#12
DaWei Resident Grouch Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,453 Rep Power: 10	Pointers are a way of accessing memory indirectly. They are implemented in the machine language for a large majority of microprocessors. One can screw up with them at any level, with varying ill effects. The alternative is to have someone write you a language and bury them well beyond your reach, at a cost of efficiency. In some respects, this Big Brother approach is a boon. __________________ Abstraction doesn't make it impossible to write bad code; it makes it possible to write superior code. Contributor's Corner: Grumpy on C++ Exceptions DaWei on Pointers

Jun 13th, 2006, 11:52 PM	#13
ShadowAssasin Programmer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New York Posts: 43 Rep Power: 0	@Dawei: 1984? java hides all the great details like pointers into wrappers so that we won't need to worry ourselves with them, in effect, "dumbing us down". Yes, java and windows make you dumb and dependent (more than their alternatives do). Whenever you get a chance, do your friends programming homework for them, they'll become dumb and dependent on you. Learn the details first, then "reward" yourself with using an abstract language like java or python. __________________ It's not complex if you know what you're doing...

Jun 14th, 2006, 12:11 AM	#15
ShadowAssasin Programmer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New York Posts: 43 Rep Power: 0	Don't get Mad, guy. Its one of those jokes that are both true but also taken to an extreme. Have you ever tried to use the generated gui code using c#? do you think its beneficial to use it without first learning how to build a gui yourself? (it can actually be more confusing) Like I said, reward yourself with abstraction when you've mastered the details. ex: if you took assembly before learning C++, pointers wouldn't seem that complex at all. __________________ It's not complex if you know what you're doing...

Jun 14th, 2006, 9:35 AM	#17
ShadowAssasin Programmer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New York Posts: 43 Rep Power: 0	lol, I guess thats why you're call the "mad_guy". I just told you that its one of those jokes taken to the extreme. If we were speaking face to face you would've probably knew that but when people read letters, email, etc. its hard to tell in what context the other person is speaking. I really didn't mean they actually make you dumb; here is the essential message of the JOKE(its a joke btw): It's not good to learn anything in abstract without foundational principals(if you want to be good at it). Java and Windows are notoriously known for hiding lower level details from users. I'm not really saying they actually make you dumb( lazy, but not dumb ). __________________ It's not complex if you know what you're doing...

Jun 14th, 2006, 1:01 PM	#19
ShadowAssasin Programmer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New York Posts: 43 Rep Power: 0	Yeah, thats true but too bad your example isn't congruent with the argument. I think it makes more sense this way..... manual saw user is to power saw user as low level language programmer is to high level language programmer power saw designer -> power saw user //doesn't correspond here. Anyway, the simple point is, you'll most likely become better if you have a stronger foundation. __________________ It's not complex if you know what you're doing...

May 27th, 2006, 3:04 PM	#11
Game_Ender Professional Programmer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 306 Rep Power: 3	Under the hood of some Java VM's the references are actually raw pointers. This is how the JamVM works.

Jun 14th, 2006, 1:06 PM	#20
King Professional Programmer Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 380 Rep Power: 3	For the C# example given above, I think it would be better to learn how to do the GUI stuff with the tools provided, then dig into the lower level guts of it to tweak it after you have a good handle on the high level stuff. __________________ I am Addicted to Linux!

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Programming Forums > Application Development > Java

why in C are used pointers and not in Java?