Oddball

OK, this doesn't apply to all of you, but something I've noticed in general about these fora.

I am a new programmer. I spend my spare time developing programs without any formal training, only me, my book and Google. Some of you I know are very different, have had formal training, and are professional programmers.

I've noticed that some of you (of course not naming) slate people for having very basic errors. Now from my training, I have learnt that this is not a very effective way to teach. Is this not a place which people come to learn? People are asking for YOUR HELP - can't you give it to them in a civilised way?

Computers are going to be around for a VERY long time. I feel we need to pass down knowledge in a way that it can be learnt, inherited and fostered. Wouldn't you agree?

I am appealing to those of you out there that I have been talking about - to change your tune. No-one's ever going to get anywhere or learn anything at this rate. It's quite depressing - no, that's the wrong word, diminishing that you do this to people. It takes confidence down, causes people to make more errors than they ever would have done.

I don't feel this should be a dog-eat-dog place. We're here to help each other, to point out silly mistakes or things we just don't know. Is there anything wrong with that? I don't think so.

I will hang around a bit before I hang up my boots to see what the reactions are to this thread. I am not saying this because I've had a bad experience myself, but because I have seen it happen and understand what these people must feel like.

Farewell.

__________________
There are 10 types of people in this world:
Those that understand binary
And those who don't

DaWei

My reaction is that there are two kinds of posts -- those in which the intended learner has performed some simple investigation (his/her own documentation, some rudimentary search), hit a wall, thought about the problem, expressed it clearly, and hopes for a solution.

The other kind is where a new person wanders in, doesn't bother to read the rules or posting guidelines, pops a question without explaining the problem well, perhaps doesn't even specify the OS and platform (the language is sometimes implicit in the forum), uses leet or AOL speak, and expects instant answers and coddling, or even to have the work done.

I will never encourage that sort of thing. It isn't in the poster's best long-term interests.

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Abstraction doesn't make it impossible to write bad code; it makes it possible to write superior code.
Contributor's Corner: Grumpy on C++ Exceptions DaWei on Pointers

Jimbo

I agree with DaWei. Even on other forums (I'm generalizing here, I only frequent one other), a well formatted, well presented question receives equally well formulated responses, and while we are here to help, we aren't here to do.

Soulstorm

Well, I have noticed it too. But that behavior isn't all that inexplicable.

Lets say that in this forum you have a post count of 2000 for example. You are a proffessional programmer and someone asks the obvious: Then, you get frustrated because you are seeing people ask questions that they shouldn't (because they can easily be answered with a little bit of reading) all the time. Some newbies I have seen here in the few time I have spent in this forum, don't even know how to politely ask for help.

But on the other hand, I also get frustrated when this happens to me. Even the most profesisonal programmers in here are bound to make mistakes, and ask the wrong questions from time to time. I have done this too (although I am not near being a pro). I have asked about bitwise operations in floating point numbers, not because I didn't know that this could not be done, but because my mind was stuck and... what more can I say? Although no one put a gun in my head, I have seen many people who are not that lucky.

In my opinion... both sides have right and at the same time wrong. Proffessional programmers must think about the times they were newbies, when they asked silly questions. However, newbies must be careful not to post questions that could be answered with a bit of reading of their programming books.

Aside all of that, the general rule is this: BE POLITE. No matter how silly your question is, if you make the question the right way, no one will kill you for doing so. And even if a guru programmer tell you to look at your book to find the answer, you cannot blame him for anything if he's also polite when he tells you that.

Despite all these things, I must say that in these forums, I expected things to be worse. Everyone here is polite in general, and I have no problems with the behavior of any member here whatsoever, despite my somewhat silly questions sometimes.

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grumpy

Being a professional programmer or otherwise is irrelevant to how people act in the forum. The little labels ("Professional Programmer", "Programming Guru", etc) are something that the forum software does based on number of posts.
One technique of effective learning is for the student to actually attempt to understand and solve problems, rather than running to someone and asking for the answer. And one characteristic of effective teachers is therefore refusing to answer a question from a student when it is obvious the student is trying to get a solution without putting in any necessary effort that would help the student learn.

You have to remember that, anyone who has picked up enough knowledge to help others was once on the learning curve. So those who have been around the block for a while know what is necessary for others to learn AND can recognise instances where the person is asking a question without having done rudimentary work to solve the problem.

In a classroom, it would be an extremely poor teacher who would answer a question immediately without considering the possibility that ANSWERING THE QUESTION WON'T ACTUALLY HELP THE STUDENT. If the question doesn't meet that test, a teacher would usually either refuse to answer the question (and suggest a bit more work is needed) or give a hint on how to start. If the student (as a fair few students do) comes back with the same question, just expressed differently, the student might get a gentle telling off. If the student (as some students still do) comes back AGAIN with the same question, just expressed differently, the student might get a less gentle telling off. If the student gets bad tempered at this (as students do when they don't want to work, and therefore go continually around in circles with the SAME question) the student will be disciplined in some way.

Now consider what that means in a forum like this where;

1) The people here are volunteers, not paid teachers or tutors, so our patience thresholds are less than you'd expect from professional teachers;

2) Those who have been around the block can recognise with pretty high confidence when a question is a symptom of no work by the person asking it;

3) Resources are provided (and being developed) to help people work out answers for themselves before asking questions. Those resources aren't perfect (and are being developed), but it is fairly frustrating when questions are asked that make it obvious they haven't even been read.

4) When the most effective answer to a question is to point them at the existing resources, people will do so. But the person wants THE ANSWER and ASKS THE SAME QUESTION AGAIN and AGAIN, possibly in a different form. And eventually gets narky because they just want THE ANSWER.

5) The person who has been pointed to the resources a few times then asks ANOTHER QUESTION that shows they haven't bothered to look at them.

Sure. We're all human and can make mistakes. And we generally accept being told we're wrong --- as long as we're convinced we are.

I've lost count of the number of times I've correctly been told I'm mistaken by others in this forum. And that I have pointed out mistakes by others. Generally, as long as the case is made, we accept that. There have also been plenty of instances where people have realised for themselves that they made a mistake, and openly acknowledged it.

I've also lost count of the number of times where someone has INCORRECTLY told someone else that they're mistaken. In those cases, most of us stand our ground and point out why they were not mistaken. That can result in some interesting debate where some useful things that neither person had thought about gets drawn out. If either playmate insists they're correct when they're not, and then throws a tantrum, they tend to be bounced though.
That's because questions about how one goes about doing bit fiddling on floating point numbers are not typical questions of newbies who don't want to think. They're usually the sign of trying to learn something in a different way, or the sign of someone trying to solve an unusual problem.
Agreed.
I'd go further. Always think before asking questions or responding to others.

And keep in mind that we are ALL here to discuss information on particular topics. Attack and question the information you receive by all means. Question the person who gives you information that doesn't feel right. If a question or the answer given is silly, don't be afraid to say so, but think twice before attacking the PERSON who wrote it.

PPoA

Here's a simple yet overlooked solution. If you've answered the question a thousand times, don't bother answering. If the question is getting your blood pressure up, it's in your best interest to ignore it.

If the person really seeks an answer, he will a) search for it b)think about why no one is answering and seek the answer to that puzzle or try to ask again c) give up, in which case he wasn't very determined to find the answer.


By emitting a hateful and snide response every time somebody asks a question, the responder is only hurting themselves and if allowed to continue, will spread to other forum regulars, thus reducing the website's ability to be a cherished resource for the programmer. If you're not helpful, why post? If half your posts say to read the rules, all you're doing is injecting your desired amount of beaurocracy into the system. If you were getting paid to do this, you'd be unemployed sooner or later. Service with a smile gentlemen.

grumpy

You forget the 4th and 5th possibilities which actually occur quite regularly in this forum:

d) keep bumping the thread into the "recent postings" listings (on the home page) by posting followups asking why nobody has responded, often accompanied by exclamations of how urgent it is that they get a response, or lamenting the fact that nobody has dropped all tools to give them their required answer.

e) post the same question in multiple forums that are completely unrelated to their question, and get narky if anybody has the temerity to point out that there is little point in doing that EVEN if that person manages to answer the question.

In short, simply ignoring a newbie who asks questions in silly ways DOES NOT WORK. They often simply get more shrill in their demands for attention.

If you actually look carefully, a fair percentage "hateful or snide" responses from people who have been here for a while are provoked by a newbie being hateful or snide first. One all too common scenario is this;

1) Newbie posts urgent request (or, all to often, demand) for information worded in a way that nobody can really understand unless they have developed advanced skills for mindreading over the internet.

2) Someone responds with something to the effect that the original question has not provided enough information to allow any useful response, and suggests having a look at the FAQ thread for pointers on how to ask a question that will get a useful response.

3) Newbie comes back with comments to the effect that his question is perfectly obvious, and that the previous poster was disrespectful and (by the way) why hasn't anyone answered yet?

4) Things go down hill from there.

Yes, there have been circumstances where those who have been around a while went too far. But those are actually the exceptions rather than the rule. The circumstances where a newbie throws a tantrum are much more frequent.
If I asked people in my workplace to give me answers to questions (or, worse, homework exercises) that I haven't taken the time to ask properly, my employer would be questioning my professional competence. If someone pointed out ways in which I could ask my question to increase my chances of getting a useful answer, and I threw a tantrum, I would probably be out of a job.

"Service with a smile" would really only be applicable if people were PAID BY THE PERSON ASKING THE QUESTIONS to act as if they are right, even when they ask poorly thought out questions and treat the service provider like dirt.

Experienced people on this forum are a resource. They are not paid to be here, so they are a resource that owes nobody anything if asked unclear questions or if they are subject to abuse when they tell you your questions are unclear.

The best way to achieve respectful and useful answers is to ask respectful and useful questions. In other words, you get back what you give in a forum like this. People who act like an abusive and spoilt child, can expect to be treated as one.

Oddball

I think the replies in this topic have really summed up.

Sorry people, I was in a bad mood at the time. Shouldn't have lashed out. Still, I think some good points were made. I won't hang up my boots, I will stay, for the time being.

Should have read into the society more before making false claims like that, and I apologise.

Thanks.

__________________
There are 10 types of people in this world:
Those that understand binary
And those who don't

Soulstorm

One last thing: Forums like this really differ from toehr kinds of forums.

Proffessional Programmers always had a feeling of superiority (I mean in a good sense) to other people who didn't know how to use a computer. I don't know why this is the case with programming, but I have seen this into myself, and to other people towards me. I believe that's the way it works, and I have to accept it.

What I want to say is that, although in other forums we see people being treated like COMPLETE equals, in technical forums this is not the case. Here, not only other people see you as just another user, but also as a potential programmer.

So, when other people try to figure out what kind of person you are, they judge you both as a person and as a programmer. So, 'we all have rights to post and being treated polite', but not everyone's opinions have the same value as other people's opinions. I believe this matters a lot when it comes for a newbie to get answers from a proffessional, and that is the most common problem about newcomers here.

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Project::Soulstorm (personal homepage)

DaWei

There is much truth to what you say. As a matter of fact, it isn't only programmers, but professionals of many disciplines. There is a Good Thang to read at How to ask questions the smart way that will delve into the attitude of some professionals towards novices that don't approach their learning task in what many of us perceive as a reasonable way. Some of the members here, in fact, are not "professional programmers", but practitioners of other disciplines who dabble in programming as an adjunct to other duties and responsibilities.

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Abstraction doesn't make it impossible to write bad code; it makes it possible to write superior code.
Contributor's Corner: Grumpy on C++ Exceptions DaWei on Pointers