Berto

dont use frames, dont use tables, use css layout and everyone but IE users will love you :0

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DaWei

Bull droppings. This is like a C programmer saying, "Don't use goto." It's a bad idea, NORMALLY, but it's not evil. Frames cause trouble, I recommend against using them. Tables are actually great for tabular material. I recommend against using them for layout purposes. When you receive advice, evaluate it in terms of rationale presented by the advisor. Don't fall into the trap of accepting self-anointed god's absolute dictums. "USE THE COMMAND LINE FOR YOU CONSOLE PROGRAMS OR THOU SHALT SURELY DIE!!"

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OpenLoop

My whole website layout is designed with tables. It works fine, besides, CSS is just too fancy for me. I only use to control links behavior.

Lich

Here's a rant I wrote about a year ago about how I feel on using frames.

http://spectrum.compactvision.net/articles.php?id=22

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SoniX

I have never used a frame again after i build my first website. The thing is that frames are very anoying for the visitors. I would rather use divs to create almost the same thing as with frames, but they aren't scrollable. If you want to make a piece of text scrollable, us the <iframe></iframe> tag.

Nowadays I use PHP as Web Coding language. This makes it possible to build classes. I just make a nice template for my site (basic template) and create all the classes for my news boxes, forum, ... Then i can call every class where I want to. Isn't OO lovely...

Polyphemus_

I always make a header file (header.php), which you include, and at the end of the page you call dump_footer(), which is also included in header.php.. works great for me

LegionZero

1.- Plan your site, do a site map
2.- Make your navigation bar, complete with rollovers, links and whatever else you want. Do no add content yet!
3.- Save your page (the one with the navigation and no content) as something like sitetemplate.htm or emptypage.htm or whatever you like. Voila! Template.
4.- Open the site with your editor and save as whatever you want to make the new page (index, about us, contact us, etc.)
5.- Add content to the new page, do not add content to your template page.

If you plan your site and follow this method you have no need to rewrite you navigation menu and you can avoid frames. Use frames only when you absolutely must use them. In this case, you can do without them.

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Ooble

Even better: use the CSS overflow property. Works like a charm.

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kerriganm

okay, I have a problem. he's six feet tall, and thinks not only that he's king of the dunghill, but that frames, microsoft, and windows servers are just the coolest things ever! now, i have no hope on most of this, but i'm trying at least to deal with the frames thing. (i'm typing one-handed {the left!}- tendonitis- excuse the no-caps). now, the problem is that he's a bull-headed pig boy. there's no way i'm going to convince him of anything. so i've got to convince his boss that frames suck, but i have to do it in a very business-like manner. what i'm asking of you guys are sound, unemotional arguments *why* frames suck.

when i insist that non-framed sites are no slower than framed sites, he says, so what? they're not actually slower, right? actually, he insists that non-framed sites are slower. and smiles and shakes his head condescendingly.

when i say they're not well thought of in our professional milieu, he says, so what? he is the king and we are all his servants, remember?

when i say they are anathema to search engines (sorry, i get all wordy when i'm pissed off), he says, so what? this part of the site is for members only, we don't want search engines to find it.

so i'm challenging you (actually i'm begging and pleading): give me cold, hard reasons why our site should not have frames. preferably well-documented studies with charts showing that frames impede usability, hurt sales, slow performance, whatever. maybe also a study showing that people who use unnecessary frames (our company logo has its own frame!) have webbed feet and should be removed from the gene pool, by force if neccessary..

i think i've won the fight over the public area of our site (www.ssfautoparts.com - currently 6 frames). but the "private" part of the site is a harder sell (would you believe 15 frames?). i've already mentioned to the power-that-be that upkeep is nightmarish, and there's always some layout nightmare going on. give me more ammo, please!!

crazykid48x

just say frames suck and if he says anything back, reply with "nuh uh" or "pffft yeah right!".

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