Programming Forums > Application Development > Assembly

Riddle · Aug 13th, 2005, 5:33 PM

http://webster.cs.ucr.edu/AsmTools/HLA/index.html

Has anyone tried HLA? I like it more. Compare these two pieces of code (first can be assembled with debug (Windows utility), and the second is HLA code):

(Toggle Plain Text)

mov dx, 10b
mov ah, 9
int 21
mov ah, 4c
int 21
db "Hello world!",0d, 0a, '$'

(Toggle Plain Text)

program hello;
#include("stdlib.hhf")
begin hello;
stdout.put("Hello world!",nl);
end hello;

I think it's much easier to code, and plan on using this often.

Ooble · Aug 13th, 2005, 5:58 PM

But does it amount to the same thing, or does using HLA add more bloat? If so, what's the advantage over a higher-level language such as C?

DaWei · Aug 13th, 2005, 7:01 PM

I have some prime Florida beachfront property....

Riddle · Aug 13th, 2005, 7:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ooble

But does it amount to the same thing, or does using HLA add more bloat? If so, what's the advantage over a higher-level language such as C?

As far as I know, it's roughly the same, but easier to use (instead of mov dx, 10b, you'd use mov("dx", "10b"); (if I recall the documentation right). The advantages/disadvantages are the same as plain ole' asm (regardless of the assembler), and it's easier to use (not easier than C, but easier than nasm or masm or whatever assembler). I myself still plan on using C++ more than anything, don't get me wrong, but I plan on using HLA when doing anything assembly-related.

prolog · Aug 13th, 2005, 7:14 PM

Hi,

@OP, yeah quite some time ago i digged a bit into it, consumed the manual and tried some stuff. But i never did anything productive with it. I kept more information about microprocessor-architectures and the way things work inside in memory than syntax. I'm definitely not an assembler-expert so i cannot tell whether this is sth good or not, but i found it usefull as u also have the possibility to issue basic instructions thus falling back to the basics. I don't know how much it has evolved now, i can only speak of round about 4 years ago but i never heard of it again until now. So my guess is, that it's not that important or brilliant, though interessting for me as a c++-programm wanting to get a little inside assembler.

Ooble · Aug 14th, 2005, 6:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riddle

As far as I know, it's roughly the same, but easier to use (instead of mov dx, 10b, you'd use mov("dx", "10b"); (if I recall the documentation right). The advantages/disadvantages are the same as plain ole' asm (regardless of the assembler), and it's easier to use (not easier than C, but easier than nasm or masm or whatever assembler). I myself still plan on using C++ more than anything, don't get me wrong, but I plan on using HLA when doing anything assembly-related.

Thanks for the info.

Betov · Aug 14th, 2005, 6:43 AM

The only thing that is Assembly, in "HLA", is the name. If you take a quick look, inside the Package, you will see "FASM.exe", that is the real Assembler, which you can find at:

< http://flatassembler.net/ >

All HLA does, is obsfucating the real job of the Back-End Assembler, tranforming a Source written in HLA Syntax into a Source written in Assembly Syntax, and the only differences will be that you will be writting HLL, while believing that you are writting Assembly, that the Compilation time will be multipled by, at least 20, and that the debugging will be made 20 times more difficult.

You will also notice that, in the couple of cases when you will see something close to Asm, in an HLA Source, the HLA notation has been, on purpose, made as different as possible from real Assembly, for example by reversing, the Instructions Members order, to deliberately make it as difficult as possible to switch to a real Assembler after having fallen into the HLA traps.

If you wish to make use of a mix of HLL and Assembler, better is to use an HLL enabling with a decent Inline Assembly, or to use an Assembler with a powerfull Macros System, enabling HLLs Constructs by User defined Macros.

Betov.

< http://rosasm.org >

DaWei · Aug 14th, 2005, 7:02 AM

Nice post, Betov. The method of using macros to achieve a level of abstraction and to ensure consistency of usage of shared code was very common in the days before high-level languages such as C were widely available in the micro world. Even as they became available, we often couldn't afford the resources to use them. That is rarely the case nowadays. I can't imagine that enough effort would be put into a "high-level assembler" to make it truly effective, given the complexities of our current machines and the specialized knowledge needed to make the run at peak speeds/efficiencies.

stevengs · Aug 14th, 2005, 7:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaWei

I have some prime Florida beachfront property....

hey! you told me you had prime Arizona beachfront property...

DaWei · Aug 14th, 2005, 7:06 AM

I sold the Arizona property to some tourist that had apparently spent too much time in Germany

.

Aug 13th, 2005, 5:33 PM	#1
Riddle Programmer Join Date: May 2005 Location: Nar Shaddaa Posts: 42 Rep Power: 0	High-level assembly http://webster.cs.ucr.edu/AsmTools/HLA/index.html Has anyone tried HLA? I like it more. Compare these two pieces of code (first can be assembled with debug (Windows utility), and the second is HLA code): (Toggle Plain Text) mov dx, 10b mov ah, 9 int 21 mov ah, 4c int 21 db "Hello world!",0d, 0a, '$' mov dx, 10b mov ah, 9 int 21 mov ah, 4c int 21 db "Hello world!",0d, 0a, '$' (Toggle Plain Text) program hello; #include("stdlib.hhf") begin hello; stdout.put("Hello world!",nl); end hello; program hello; #include("stdlib.hhf") begin hello; stdout.put("Hello world!",nl); end hello; I think it's much easier to code, and plan on using this often.

Aug 13th, 2005, 5:58 PM	#2
Ooble I eat cake for breakfast. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: In my box. Posts: 4,434 Rep Power: 9	But does it amount to the same thing, or does using HLA add more bloat? If so, what's the advantage over a higher-level language such as C? __________________ Me :: You :: Them

Aug 13th, 2005, 7:01 PM	#3
DaWei Resident Grouch Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,453 Rep Power: 10	I have some prime Florida beachfront property.... __________________ Abstraction doesn't make it impossible to write bad code; it makes it possible to write superior code. Contributor's Corner: Grumpy on C++ Exceptions DaWei on Pointers

Aug 13th, 2005, 7:14 PM	#5
prolog Programmer Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 69 Rep Power: 4	Hi, @OP, yeah quite some time ago i digged a bit into it, consumed the manual and tried some stuff. But i never did anything productive with it. I kept more information about microprocessor-architectures and the way things work inside in memory than syntax. I'm definitely not an assembler-expert so i cannot tell whether this is sth good or not, but i found it usefull as u also have the possibility to issue basic instructions thus falling back to the basics. I don't know how much it has evolved now, i can only speak of round about 4 years ago but i never heard of it again until now. So my guess is, that it's not that important or brilliant, though interessting for me as a c++-programm wanting to get a little inside assembler. __________________ -= C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do succeed, you will blow away your whole leg. =- Bjarne Stroustrup

Aug 14th, 2005, 7:02 AM	#8
DaWei Resident Grouch Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,453 Rep Power: 10	Nice post, Betov. The method of using macros to achieve a level of abstraction and to ensure consistency of usage of shared code was very common in the days before high-level languages such as C were widely available in the micro world. Even as they became available, we often couldn't afford the resources to use them. That is rarely the case nowadays. I can't imagine that enough effort would be put into a "high-level assembler" to make it truly effective, given the complexities of our current machines and the specialized knowledge needed to make the run at peak speeds/efficiencies. __________________ Abstraction doesn't make it impossible to write bad code; it makes it possible to write superior code. Contributor's Corner: Grumpy on C++ Exceptions DaWei on Pointers

Aug 14th, 2005, 6:43 AM	#7
Betov Newbie Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 11 Rep Power: 0	The only thing that is Assembly, in "HLA", is the name. If you take a quick look, inside the Package, you will see "FASM.exe", that is the real Assembler, which you can find at: < http://flatassembler.net/ > All HLA does, is obsfucating the real job of the Back-End Assembler, tranforming a Source written in HLA Syntax into a Source written in Assembly Syntax, and the only differences will be that you will be writting HLL, while believing that you are writting Assembly, that the Compilation time will be multipled by, at least 20, and that the debugging will be made 20 times more difficult. You will also notice that, in the couple of cases when you will see something close to Asm, in an HLA Source, the HLA notation has been, on purpose, made as different as possible from real Assembly, for example by reversing, the Instructions Members order, to deliberately make it as difficult as possible to switch to a real Assembler after having fallen into the HLA traps. If you wish to make use of a mix of HLL and Assembler, better is to use an HLL enabling with a decent Inline Assembly, or to use an Assembler with a powerfull Macros System, enabling HLLs Constructs by User defined Macros. Betov. < http://rosasm.org >

Aug 14th, 2005, 7:06 AM	#10
DaWei Resident Grouch Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,453 Rep Power: 10	I sold the Arizona property to some tourist that had apparently spent too much time in Germany . __________________ Abstraction doesn't make it impossible to write bad code; it makes it possible to write superior code. Contributor's Corner: Grumpy on C++ Exceptions DaWei on Pointers

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Programming Forums > Application Development > Assembly

High-level assembly