Programming Forums > Script Programming > Other Scripting Languages

crawforddavid2006 · May 19th, 2007, 3:21 AM

Which is better J# or C#, and why?

Wizard1988 · May 19th, 2007, 11:02 AM

You might just want to say: Which is better Java or C#.

Jessehk · May 19th, 2007, 11:23 AM

I'd guess and say that C# is better, based solely on the fact that it is Microsoft's own technology, whereas F# is just a copy of Java. Obviously, they'd put more energy in one over the other.

ReggaetonKing · May 19th, 2007, 11:45 AM

C#, IMHO, is the best .NET language there is. Microsoft puts so much into that language it's crazy!

melbolt · May 19th, 2007, 11:49 AM

this will explain it to you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_Sharp

quote taken from article:

"While J# provides a Java syntax on top of .NET's framework, IKVM is effectively a Java framework running on top of .NET's framework. J# is generally not considered to be a language on par with C# or VB.NET, and does not have the same level of support, samples, or updates as the other languages do. This fact notwithstanding, J# is a usable .Net language and has access to all the CLR features."

but we see it also has its uses:

"J# can work with java bytecode as well as source so it can be used to transition applications that use third party libraries even if their original source is unavailable."

mackenga · May 19th, 2007, 6:38 PM

C# is essentially a knock-off of Java anyway.

The best .NET language is undeniably Perl. (Just putting the cat among the pigeons).

.NET is a pain in the arse anyway; I can't understand why developers still have any patience with it after 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 ... constant radical changes make this whole framework more part of the problem set than the solution set if you ask me.

Wizard1988 · May 19th, 2007, 9:58 PM

Quote:

I can't understand why developers still have any patience with it after 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 ...

What do you recommend they use as an alternative to program for the Windows platform?

mackenga · Jun 9th, 2007, 3:17 PM

In short, Perl. To elaborate:

For web applications, Postgres or MySQL as the backend, Perl CGI scripts (or C++ CGI programs if performance is really crucial, but when is it really in this context?), and the excellent Apache webserver.

For small applications, system administration scripts and rapid prototypes of more serious GUI applications, Perl with a cross-platform GUI toolkit (I like Tk, which is dead simple, but of course the Perl wxWidgets binding could be used so that you could use the same GUI toolkit with Perl and C++). For more serious GUI applications, wxWidgets and C++ would be my first choice.

These technologies work just fine on Windows and used correctly do not tie you to any particular platform which means you aren't held hostage by your old applications in the future and forced to pay progressively more and more for support and licenses for new versions (which, as we're seeing with MS SQL Server 2000 -> 2005, can be almost as much of a porting and relearning effort as porting to Postgres from SQL 2000).

One problem though is that no two developers that use open source technologies seem to agree! A lot of people I know would be appalled that I didn't mention Python for example. In the one-size-fits-nobody world of Win32, this can seem confusing, disorientating and alarming: how can you tell who's right?

Well the thing is it actually doesn't matter. Look into which ones provide the sort of functionality you need, and then choose some. Different developers recommend different things - I like Perl, others prefer Python - but the truth is that they're both excellent and actually overlap a lot in terms of what they are good at. It's a win/win/win/win/win situation if you see what I mean: multiple options, mostly excellent.

To be honest, I think it's a bit of strange question: what would I recommend for people developing on the Windows platform. To be perfectly frank with you I'd recommend a change of platform. There are two kinds of people developing for Windows willingly: those that drink the MS marketing Kool-Aid and actually believe the claims about its greatness having never used anything that was genuinely good (to the guys in some hypothetical hick-town the pot-bellied eleven-toed girl next door is the most beautiful woman in the world), and those that are, like me, tied to it by legacy applications that were built using unportable MS software development technology, which seems a very strange reason to try the new unportable tinkertoy kit from the tat churning monolith.

If you're stuck with Windows as an OS, start moving to cross platform tools and in a few years, as the legacy systems retire, you'll find you can switch platforms, save a bomb on licensing and not spend years on rework. If you're not, and you still want to develop for it, devote some time to trying the good stuff and you'll probably lose your desire to target these archaic, expensive toasters. Use .NET now because you have VB6 legacy stuff that means you can't port away from Windows and in five or six years time, you'll keep using Windows because of that shitty legacy .NET stuff that you can't port away from Windows... and MS won't be supporting it any more.

P.S.: Apologies for the late response; not been on the forums much lately. Too busy trying to maintain steaming piles of VB6 filth from the nineties.

jaeusm · Jun 9th, 2007, 6:03 PM

Quote:

I can't understand why developers still have any patience with it after 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 ... constant radical changes make this whole framework more part of the problem set than the solution set if you ask me.

.NET 3.0 is basically just a set of technologies added to .NET 2.0. I wouldn't call that a "radical change" at all.

Quote:

those that drink the MS marketing Kool-Aid and actually believe the claims about its greatness having never used anything that was genuinely good

mackenga · Jun 10th, 2007, 3:59 AM

jaeusm: OK, perhaps I overstated my point. 1.0 -> 2.0 caused a lot of problems for people I know, and I haven't actually heard anything similar about 2.0 -> 3.0 as yet, and to be fair even 1.0 -> 2.0 did not constitute a radical change. I should have said significant or incompatible changes, and avoided suggesting that 2.0 -> 3.0 was problematic when actually I don't know that; haven't heard any scare stories so far, just a lot of developers being concerned that MS were about to do the same thing again that they'd done with the previous version shift.

Points taken, thanks for keeping me honest.

May 19th, 2007, 11:02 AM	#2
Wizard1988 Professional Programmer Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Chitown Posts: 414 Rep Power: 3	You might just want to say: Which is better Java or C#. __________________ JG-Webdesign

May 19th, 2007, 11:23 AM	#3
Jessehk The Oblivious One Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 630 Rep Power: 4	I'd guess and say that C# is better, based solely on the fact that it is Microsoft's own technology, whereas F# is just a copy of Java. Obviously, they'd put more energy in one over the other. __________________ Dr. Zoidberg: [ecstatic] I'm going to a movie... with FRIENDS!

May 19th, 2007, 11:45 AM	#4
ReggaetonKing Sexy Programmer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: New Jersey Posts: 891 Rep Power: 3	C#, IMHO, is the best .NET language there is. Microsoft puts so much into that language it's crazy! __________________ I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code!

May 19th, 2007, 11:49 AM	#5
melbolt Hobbyist Programmer Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA, USA Posts: 229 Rep Power: 4	this will explain it to you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_Sharp quote taken from article: "While J# provides a Java syntax on top of .NET's framework, IKVM is effectively a Java framework running on top of .NET's framework. J# is generally not considered to be a language on par with C# or VB.NET, and does not have the same level of support, samples, or updates as the other languages do. This fact notwithstanding, J# is a usable .Net language and has access to all the CLR features." but we see it also has its uses: "J# can work with java bytecode as well as source so it can be used to transition applications that use third party libraries even if their original source is unavailable." __________________ I have never let my schooling interfere with my education. -Mark Twain- Xbox live gamertag: melbolt

May 19th, 2007, 6:38 PM	#6
mackenga Professional Programmer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 314 Rep Power: 4	C# is essentially a knock-off of Java anyway. The best .NET language is undeniably Perl. (Just putting the cat among the pigeons). .NET is a pain in the arse anyway; I can't understand why developers still have any patience with it after 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 ... constant radical changes make this whole framework more part of the problem set than the solution set if you ask me. __________________ "I'm not a genius. Why do I have to suffer?"

Jun 9th, 2007, 3:17 PM	#8
mackenga Professional Programmer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 314 Rep Power: 4	In short, Perl. To elaborate: For web applications, Postgres or MySQL as the backend, Perl CGI scripts (or C++ CGI programs if performance is really crucial, but when is it really in this context?), and the excellent Apache webserver. For small applications, system administration scripts and rapid prototypes of more serious GUI applications, Perl with a cross-platform GUI toolkit (I like Tk, which is dead simple, but of course the Perl wxWidgets binding could be used so that you could use the same GUI toolkit with Perl and C++). For more serious GUI applications, wxWidgets and C++ would be my first choice. These technologies work just fine on Windows and used correctly do not tie you to any particular platform which means you aren't held hostage by your old applications in the future and forced to pay progressively more and more for support and licenses for new versions (which, as we're seeing with MS SQL Server 2000 -> 2005, can be almost as much of a porting and relearning effort as porting to Postgres from SQL 2000). One problem though is that no two developers that use open source technologies seem to agree! A lot of people I know would be appalled that I didn't mention Python for example. In the one-size-fits-nobody world of Win32, this can seem confusing, disorientating and alarming: how can you tell who's right? Well the thing is it actually doesn't matter. Look into which ones provide the sort of functionality you need, and then choose some. Different developers recommend different things - I like Perl, others prefer Python - but the truth is that they're both excellent and actually overlap a lot in terms of what they are good at. It's a win/win/win/win/win situation if you see what I mean: multiple options, mostly excellent. To be honest, I think it's a bit of strange question: what would I recommend for people developing on the Windows platform. To be perfectly frank with you I'd recommend a change of platform. There are two kinds of people developing for Windows willingly: those that drink the MS marketing Kool-Aid and actually believe the claims about its greatness having never used anything that was genuinely good (to the guys in some hypothetical hick-town the pot-bellied eleven-toed girl next door is the most beautiful woman in the world), and those that are, like me, tied to it by legacy applications that were built using unportable MS software development technology, which seems a very strange reason to try the new unportable tinkertoy kit from the tat churning monolith. If you're stuck with Windows as an OS, start moving to cross platform tools and in a few years, as the legacy systems retire, you'll find you can switch platforms, save a bomb on licensing and not spend years on rework. If you're not, and you still want to develop for it, devote some time to trying the good stuff and you'll probably lose your desire to target these archaic, expensive toasters. Use .NET now because you have VB6 legacy stuff that means you can't port away from Windows and in five or six years time, you'll keep using Windows because of that shitty legacy .NET stuff that you can't port away from Windows... and MS won't be supporting it any more. P.S.: Apologies for the late response; not been on the forums much lately. Too busy trying to maintain steaming piles of VB6 filth from the nineties. __________________ "I'm not a genius. Why do I have to suffer?"

Jun 10th, 2007, 3:59 AM	#10
mackenga Professional Programmer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 314 Rep Power: 4	jaeusm: OK, perhaps I overstated my point. 1.0 -> 2.0 caused a lot of problems for people I know, and I haven't actually heard anything similar about 2.0 -> 3.0 as yet, and to be fair even 1.0 -> 2.0 did not constitute a radical change. I should have said significant or incompatible changes, and avoided suggesting that 2.0 -> 3.0 was problematic when actually I don't know that; haven't heard any scare stories so far, just a lot of developers being concerned that MS were about to do the same thing again that they'd done with the previous version shift. Points taken, thanks for keeping me honest. __________________ "I'm not a genius. Why do I have to suffer?"

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