Arevos

Oh, I quite agree, which is why I personally don't believe in such a God. But I believe it's Christian belief that God is a purely good being - if I'm wrong about that, feel free to correct me.

Ooble

Not just Christian. Five of the six major world religions believe in a benevolent deity, and the sixth one doesn't have a God.

__________________
Me :: You :: Them

DaWei

Which is beside the point, as it doesn't address the issue of who made the judgement call. Justice and benevolence aren't the same thing, either. True justice isn't served by plea-bargaining and the withholding of promised punishment. Where's the deterrent for foolish man in that?

One problem with punishment by a Power is that the punished will tend to ascribe it to Whim Of Power, and perhaps even be believed and commiserated with. Your company commander in boot camp knows this. He punishes the entire group, innocent or not. The innocent victims then take it upon themselves to exact retribution by further punishing the guilty slob. It's hard to ascribe those actions to power's whim, rather than guilt (even though they may truly be a manipulative manifestation of such). It's all a very nice kettle of convoluted worms .

__________________
Abstraction doesn't make it impossible to write bad code; it makes it possible to write superior code.
Contributor's Corner: Grumpy on C++ Exceptions DaWei on Pointers

nnxion

Yeah true, God is truly good and righteous, in Him there is no darkness. But, a belief is about believing, because some things are not provable at the moment. I'm not trying to force this on any one of you, I do hope you all make the right choices.

I think that truly understanding how justice and benevolence go together is impossible for us, as we (as individuals) are not to decide who dies or not.

__________________
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for."
-- Socrates

zem52887

Arevos, what are your thoughts on free will as a defense to the problem of evil?

duale2005

Balaa balaa

Arevos

Even with free will, people are affected by their environment. For instance, the Italians are essentially genetically identical to their Roman ancestors, and yet they no longer kill people for entertainment. The reason they do not is that their environment has changed.

The environment is ultimately controlled by God. Because He is omnipotent, God has ultimate control over the environment. Because He is omniscient, God knows the outcome of every change He makes. For instance, when God constructed the Garden of Eden, he knew in advance that its design would eventually end with Adam and Eve being cast out. Indeed, being omnipotent, God could have created the Garden such that Adam and Eve still had free will, but would not eat the forbidden fruit. If he could not do this, he would not be omnipotent.

Therefore, God wanted Eve to take the forbidden fruit; indeed, the entire Garden must have been constructed for that very purpose. Following this line of argument to it's logical conclusion, it follows that God deliberately introduced sin into the world. If it were not deliberate, then God is not perfect, as He made a mistake. If it were deliberate, then God is not omnibenevolent, as He was ultimately responsible for the Original Sin.

nnxion

That's not true; yes, He knew that they'd go wrong, but God didn't create it so that they would go wrong.
From ALL the trees there was only one that they should not eat from. It seems to me that should not be THAT hard.

God would not tell them to NOT eat it if he wanted them to eat it. But with giving the option to the the wrong thing, he gives man the choice to choose for good or evil. That's what life is all about. Every man makes mistakes, but we learn from God that's bad, and are able to choose for good instead of evil.
The people that live with Him through Christ, are freed from sin. The ones that don't can still choose but are slaved to sin and cannot escape it eventually. It might seem like a paradox, but is nonetheless true.

You say that God is responsible for what humans do, although he is all powerful, he doesn't FORCE His will on you. YOU choose, your mistake if you go wrong, not His.

__________________
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for."
-- Socrates

Arevos

What's the difference? As you say, He knew that they'd go wrong, and He created the Universe knowing that they'd go wrong.

God had the option of creating creatures that had free will but would not have eaten the forbidden fruit. By definition He must have had that option, since He is omnipotent. But He didn't choose to take that option. Why not?

There isn't any option but to conclude that God wanted the fruit to be eaten. If God wanted it any other way, then it would be another way.
Human curiousity; you see it in any child. Curiousity placed there by God, of course.

nnxion

Yes. The chance was there for them not eating the forbidden fruit, since they had a free will, but they decided to eat it.

If you create something that will not do something by definition, you restrict them. Now they had the choice to eat it or not, and they chose to eat it.

__________________
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for."
-- Socrates