Arevos

The crux of my problem with omniscient/omnipotence and God is thus:

If God is omnipotent, then he could have created any Universe.
If God is omniscient, then he knew exactly what he he was creating.

Therefore the Universe God has created must, by definition, be precisely what He desires. Ergo, every action I make is exactly what God wants. Every movement of every atom is in perfect synchronosity with God's plan.

And when every action your make is according to a cosmic design; what place is there for free will? What's the point of Heaven and Hell?

That's my general problem with a perfect God.

Still, the fact remains that God sanctioned acts of war in the past, according to the Old Testament, that would result in a war crimes tribunal today.

I think it just shows we are intelligent animals

From the few bits I've read, I can't see how it differs from any other religious text that has been handed down through the centuries.

zander

i would say i'm a humanist, as believing in a god that was based on the image of man seems like your going in circles, because if your believing in a god that was based on man then why not just believe in man(or women) as you can actually see them and know that they're there.

nnxion

The purpose of a free will is that God doesn't decide what you do, and hasn't created earth in a way that forces you. You're saying that you are a robot.
Well this was my last attempt to convince you, at least I tried

Yes you are right, but it was to survive.

Hahahaha, you're funny. I know you are serious, but still.

You will never know if you don't read it all

What?
God has made us after His image, idols are made based on the image of men.

__________________
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for."
-- Socrates

Arevos

But clearly my environment affects my decisions. The events that occur in my life shape who I am, and so too does my DNA. These two things were, at least initially, controlled by God. Assuming the truth of genesis a moment, then God knew, because he was omnipotent, that the Garden of Eden was created in such a way that it would result in Adam taking a bite of the forbidden fruit. Since God is omnipotent, he could have redesigned the garden in a way where this scenario would not take place. The removal of a particular serpent would go a long way to achieving this goal.

Thus, God constructed the Garden of Eden for the specific purpose of casting Adam and Eve out of it. He knew they'd take a bite of the apple, because the garden must have been designed in such a fashion, that it would be inevitable that the two humans would be eventually cast out.

From that initial push, all events in human history follow. The arrangement of atoms in the Garden of Eden, if genesis is true and God is omniscient, must be a blueprint of all future events. Humankind is following the map that God created in the Garden of Eden.

I think they did a lot more than that. Taking the women of a city as slaves for your men goes way beyond simple survival.

Biologically, that's all that we are. I think it's funny that people find the need to believe in something more that each other.

I think it's a question of time. I can't read all the novels in the world, so I look at the blurb on the back and make a choice whether to read the book or not. Likewise, I haven't the time to read all the religious texts in the world. The Bible doesn't strike me as worth it from the parts I've read so far.

Uday

My opinion about god is god did not exist in the form human beings worship. I did not know god exists in any other form like the energy that hold the universe and its many forms like gravitational force etc etc and that energy qualify as god. Many are of the belief that God controls human beings and the world. If that is true then why is there so much problems in this world. If it is done by God, then God is not a good person. Or else God did not have control over anything and if that is the case then why pray to God?

First came human beings, then religion and god or god and religion at the same time. In olden days there was total lawlessness since there was no police no military and people need to be controlled to behave properly. So some good persons like jesus, etc started to preach good things and they became leaders and eventually god to the people since they have some extraordinary capabilities like some of the human beings today have (someone touching live elecric wire, showing magic etc).

nnxion

Uday, if you read the thread you can see some of your questions already answered. It may take time and effort to research God, but you may find it worth it.

__________________
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for."
-- Socrates

drifter

All this banter about religion has me coming to a decision.

Religion is for the weak minded.
Weak minded people can't rely on themselves to think up answers so they believe what is thrown at them in order to stabilize their lives.

Some might use a type of religion for say, a code of conduct or something, Atheism is for the weak minded as well, since they decide they just don't want to believe in anything, they are taking the lazy way out.

I can say this with full confidence, since I was baptized Roman Catholic, lost my religion around the age of 13(to Atheism) then decided better of myself and thought about it alot, I now follow Wicca for my life conduct(since I was about 20 or 21, although I didn't define it as Wicca until a couple years ago when I turned 23), and it corrisponds with the majority of what I have decided I want to consider to be the way things are.

I have to say that thinking for yourself is much better than follow a set of beliefs some random quack thought up hundreds of years ago.
But to each his/her own.

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Mocker

Many religious people would argue that it is far lazier to choose a belief because it is the way you want things to be, then to stick to tenants you may not always agree with, because you have the faith it is right. Doubt is natural and fighting it takes more energy than believing in something you WANT to exist.

I want something to be out there, a reason for existence besides being nothign more than physical components and some random life, but there is no way I could choose a religion because anythign I choose would just be me imposing the way I want things on a world that seems to be anything but that. Therefore if I looked at Wicca and thought, hmm, that makes sense, I wouldnt' become Wicca because me wanting it doesnt make it true. So i'm without a religion until God talks to me or something happens that I FEEL is the irrevocably the truth

and Drifter.. sorry but I dont see you being baptized and losing your religion as giving you the authority to declare all religious folks weak-minded.

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Arevos

Wow, you manage to pretty much lay into both sides there

I can't comment on your attitude to religious, as I'm not a religious person, but I will have a go at answering your accusation that atheists are weak minded. I used to sit on the fence with regards to the existance of God, but I became an atheist when I realised that I was giving the idea of a God more weight than perhaps it deserved, maybe as a throwback from my childhood reverence.

Whilst it's useful to keep an open mind, sometimes you have to be practical about such matters. Sure, there could be a pink hippo floating around the Sun that our telescopes have not spotted, but is it really likely? I could keep an open mind about the hippo, but for practical purposes, I can discount it's existance; life's too short to worry about such things. Likewise, I can discount God; there's no real evidence for His existance, and many logical problems that arise from the powers He is said to possess. Thus, I take a shortcut and discount God's existance, until I am proved otherwise. I'm not quite sure how discounting possibilities one finds unlikely could be considered weak minded.

nnxion

I wonder what consider yourself then.

What do you think about the agnostic then?

Some people decide to adjust to the circumstances, others decide to adjust the circumstances.

I think for myself, and I believe in God because I know that He exists. I don't really know how I know it. If there was a rationale behind it, there would be no reason for faith.

If there were a rationale, this would be it: Christianity is the only belief where one's good works cannot save him, but only by the grace of God.
Definition of sin: Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.
Seems clear to me.

The Spirit is the Holy Spirit, part of the trinity of God. The sinful nature is what we want. If we are led by the Spirit we follow God.

These are the fruits of the Spirit, thus if we are led by the Spirit, we shall give off those fruits. (Just like a tree gives fruit )

Definition of weak-minded: Having or exhibiting a lack of judgment or conviction.
I think this pretty much says I think deeply about it, weak-minded has nothing to do with it.

__________________
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for."
-- Socrates