Cache

I can't see what logic there is in taking a natural explanation for a physical phenomenon and then saying: "Maybe there's a magic man in there too!"
That seems to me like the kind of thinking that leads people to believe in nonsense like "Intelligent Design."

MiKuS

If you understand the term "soul" as a continuum of individuality from moment to moment, from lifetime to lifetime, then you can say that I also accept a concept of soul; there is a kind of continuum of consciousness wouldn't you say?

when i said the pineal gland was the seat for the soul i speaking metaphorically.

andro

Odd timing for this, given that in the last 2 weeks I've both watched Donnie Darko and read The Sirens of Titan...

__________________
http://www.kevinherron.com/

lectricpharaoh

This is an interesting point, and echoes what I've believed for a long time.

To explain, let me give an example about randomness. Imagine you're rolling a six-sided die. What number comes up will depend on the variables involved, such as the position of the die as it left your hand, the height above the surface you're rolling it on, what kind of surface, the amount of 'spin' you imparted to the die, material and shape of the die, and so on. Even nigh-imperceptible factors, such as the Earth's spin, air currents, or position of the moon could affect things, as all exert some influence, however minuscule. In fact, in any system, there will be an infinite number of factors exerting influence, but only a small number of these will have a significant impact; as such, only these factors need to be considered in most cases.

Now, if one could roll an identical die in an identical way on two separate occasions, and every single factor was identical, then the result would be the same. Randomness is simply the label we've come up with when we cannot control the inputs to a great enough extent to have certainty of the outcome.

Now take a biological system. Every such system is extremely complex, and the factors that exert a measurable influence are far more numerous, making it even harder to make predictions. However, just because we cannot predict the outcome does not make it any less fixed. Since we cannot measure every factor (due to their number being infinite), we must settle for measuring only those we believe to weigh significantly in the outcome. In many systems, however, even this number is so great as to make the prediction come after the actual event. When I was a kid, I read a book 'When HARLIE Was One' about an AI; at one point, the AI was at risk of being terminated and sought to make itself useful by having a 'Graphic Omniscient Device' extension built. Here's an excerpt from the book after G.O.D. had been approved:
Yes, I'm rambling now. My point, though, is that if everything is fixed, there cannot be free will. However, there can be the appearance of it, since as far as we can tell, it's not fixed. To use another analogy, imagine you go see a movie. The ending is the same regardless of whether you've seen the movie before, but if you've not seen it before, you can still enjoy it. It has the appearance of being unpredictable to the audience, but that's all.

__________________
A man's knowledge is like an expanding sphere, the surface corresponding to the boundary between the known and the unknown. As the sphere grows, so does its surface; the more a man learns, the more he realizes how much he does not know. Hence, the most ignorant man thinks he knows it all. - L. Sprague de Camp

Cache

No, I don't think I would. "continuum of individuality ... from lifetime to lifetime" - all sounds like fluff to me. Metaphorical fluff, of course . I don't find that kind of language helpful.

A little clarity goes a long way. See, for instance, the following clip (which, BTW, is a good representation of my views):
"Steven Pinker on the 'Ghost in the Machine', Soul, Free Will"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A_r6_GGv3U

MiKuS

In your post you mention that when rolling a die many many factors contribute to where it lands, a butterfly flapping it's wings on the other side of the each could even have an impact on the outcome of the die, right? This theory can apply to things like weather, rolling a die and whatever else (known as the butterfly effect), it seems impossible that our decisions are predetermined by a system of chaos. While the neural network in our brains is as random as a fractal; there is method to this madness, I control my body more then merely perceiving reality and acting on that, I dream where my own laws of attraction apply, I meditate where I can clearly block out reality and substitute my own, I know that reality is still there, but in my head time has no meaning thus the laws of chaos theory do no apply. Our ability to escape reality and delve into the abyss that is our own mind is what separates us from other animals and what makes us free.

The secret to life is making the right decisions at the right time. If you really want something "fate" has not predetermined that you cannot achieve this, for it is the ability to make these decisions that makes us have free will.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory (read about the butterfly effect here)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Thought (a good read)

As you can see, my beliefs are a mix of many religions, not just one.

EDIT: i'd like to add that i really like discussing philosophical topics like this, it really opens your mind to what reality really is. we spend so much time on things that are not vital to our survival. Life is a hard concept to grasp because it's meaning is open to interpretation. Life is different for everyone and because of that it doesn't necessarily mean that there is one ultimate truth. Reality is whatever you want it to be, just make the right choice.

Jimbo

A system of chaos so called only because we can't accurately model it's inner workings. At a grand scale, it's all explained by laws (even perhaps ones we don't know about yet).

__________________
<insert disclaimer here>
<insert shameless plug for Visual Studio here>

redfiretruck

I believe in free will because I don't like the idea of "fate". If fate were true then me not doing anything would still end up with what I had to end up with had I worked as hard as possible. In my opinion, it is the lazy way of thinking about life. More importantly, the lazy way to deal with life. -- I also think religion is the lazy way of dealing with the thought of death.... --

Jabo

Back to lectricpharoahs dice for a moment...
I was playing this role-playing with some friends of my brother's once. First and last time I played it; it was a Civil-war simulation board game, with rules and such akin to D&D. The game had been started some days or weeks earlier, and I was filling in for somebody who couldn't make it that day. I was given a regiment that had already suffered considerable losses in the skirmish and I'm sure they thought it was insignificant. I played a couple of rounds, and was in the position of losing completely on my next turn and being out of the game.
When it came my turn to roll the dice, was rolling 2 six-sided dice. Before I rolled, I asked the question of the game-master, is there any way to not die, to which the response was, only if you roll double-sixes. I can't explain the feeling I had while I prepared to roll, but it wasn't a normal every-day feeling. I blew on the dice to "warm" them up. It was almost as if I was praying on the dice, and when I rolled, it was a double-six. I rolled the dice normally, although maybe a bit weak for a normal roll. I did nothing to try to cheat on the roll. That double-six set off a chain of events that caused the opponents to lose, when they had a sure victory.
First, instead of me losing my battle, when I was outnumbered something like 8 to 1, I caused that group an moderate number of casualties. Then came the game-masters morale roll, which they failed. This caused them to retreat. When they retreated, all other groups that were in sight range had to roll a morale roll, of which 9 out of 10 failed. The results were that my one roll turned a sure loss into a landslide victory.
The feeling that I had while rolling? It wasn't gas, it felt supernatural. Maybe it's the same feeling a gambler feels when he bets it all, I can't say; but if I were to venture a guess, I'd say this feeling is the basis of many religions. They strive to feel it in their moment of hopelessness. When it comes (if they have enough faith to elicit it) the way is clear.
I'm not a religious nut, by the way, I don't even go to church and spend a lot of my time cursing churches.

BTW, since I was never asked to join in their game ever again, let alone even come to their house, I assume they were a bit perturbed by the outcome of that game. I can't say whether or not they felt what I felt, if even a little, but their expressions were no doubt of disbelief at what they witnessed.

Jabo

I could try to muster up a somewhat scientific explanation, subject to critcism of course. Perhaps, this feeling is one of elevated senses. Your subconscious uses every nerve in your body, every sensory receptor, to evaluate a situation. Once your subconscious has enough information, it prompts you to take action, but controls your every movement precisely, all the way down to how your skin wrinkles. It uses this wrinkling action to control the dice, which it knows exactly what position they are in, to cause them to move in a predetermined way which gurantees the needed/desired result.

I'm sure this feeling is what also makes heros in wars.