Random-Spirit

Have you ever wondered that instead of blindly trying to accomplish something you have not much of an idea about you should read some documentation (a.k.a manuals) or perhaps even read a book on the subject? I know this might sound a tad old fashioned, but is reading up on a subject just too hard for people these days? Also have you considered that actually trying things out for yourself, maybe making mistakes, might be more rewarding and educational for you?

I am not just getting at anyone personally but just people in general (and not just on any forum or even the internet). How can anyone expect to learn to program computers if they are not prepared to read books, use references and just write code on their own and try things out? If you do a degree in any subject they will not spoon feed you the answers, all they will do is point you in the right direction and give you a little push to help you on your way. You will be expected to read books, go to the library and write lots of code (even if it is rubbish) as that is the only way people learn.

Maybe I am just speaking to a brick wall or maybe I am just some idiot who knows nothing. Does anyone here thing that I am crazy with what I just said? I bet there are people that will take offence to it. Sorry if this is a little random, it is just my observations about people who claim to know how to program and what writing code is all about but fail to try to think on their own.

Komodo

Skimmed through it mostly... I kinda see what you mean, newbs wanting a step-by-step for everthing. 'tis annoying, though it does happen everywhere, over at rpgwoforums at least twice a month someone is asking for a step-by-step for every little thing to do with running a rpgwo server.

I don't find it much fun having everything handed to me. It's like using a cheat device for a video game just to be high level, half the fun is getting to a high level.

I usually try to figure stuff out myself, if I can't I'll try to find the answer online, if I am absolutely confused and can't find a suitable answer... then is usually when I'll ask for help.

When I first started messing around with PHP, I kept forgetting the semicolon, after a bit I started to remember it. Doing something is teh best way to learn, reading a book gives you the info, practice gives you the habit.

/ramble

tAK

Yeah, for the most part people should be reading more documentation.
However, if you take a good look at advancement in computing, if everyone who ever set out to do something complex (Code or otherwise) had to learn from scratch from books / manuals and making mistakes, then nothing would go forward.

If i am "given" help or an already coded function to do the task i need, then i could shave potential hours / days / weeks off of a project.

To this end, passing knowledge on becomes faster, however, i would like to think i walk on the side of the line where most things are self taught and when i do ask for help, it is normally when something just appears to completely elude me, or because i want to know of if others with more experience deem it possible.

dr.p

No, you're not alone, Random. I mean, I don't really wonder [i]why[i] people do that. I was like that myself when I first started out because of poor availability of information, and I had no teacher/mentor to show me where to start.

Anyhoo, I think it's a case-by-case thing, like anything else. Some people will whine and moan to be spoon fed when they should have been weaned 8 years ago, while others actually develop at a normal pace once they have the necessary info and direction.

__________________
Neeley.org

DaWei

Right on, Random.

Is that true? How did we get the first wheel?

You are right, in a sense. Not building upon existing learning is a mistake. That's not what Random is saying. He's saying, "Why fail to build upon existing available learning, why ask your mom for the answer, instead of reading the answers that are already available".

There is a spirit of entitlement upon the advanced world. It comes from being spoon-fed caviar in the midst of localized plenty, while the majority are starving.

__________________
Abstraction doesn't make it impossible to write bad code; it makes it possible to write superior code.
Contributor's Corner: Grumpy on C++ Exceptions DaWei on Pointers

ReggaetonKing

I totally agree with you Random-Spirit. I have some experience on the topic. When I was in my last CS class (AP CS), everyone would just whine and cry about their program not compiling. Even though their programs were no bigger than 25 lines. Given that the compiler tells you the cause of the error. Instead of reading the error message and trying again, they would raise their hand and cry for help, asking what the problem is! Arg! I got so pissed at these people I wanted to throw a monitor at them!

__________________
I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code!

Komodo

CRT or LCD?

Random-Spirit

>Arg! I got so pissed at these people I wanted to throw a monitor at them!

You know that is so true. I was once in a lab session doing some C programming. The task was some simple IO using the standard C library, nothing to hard if you had been to the lecture and read the lab notes prior to the session. This is what happened.

One person was typing in C code straight off a web site. Instead of typing in #include <stdio.h> he typed #include <studio.h>. The compiler failed at the pre-processor stage with one error saying that there is no header called studio.h. He was sitting next to me and he asked me why it did not compile. So I read his code and pointed out that he had typed stdio.h wrong. He changed it and then attempted to compile it. It failed with a few compiler errors due to his bad typing, but not due to any pre-processor errors. He then said to me now it gives me even more errors and he changed it back. He also said that I was wrong in the correction, so I told him to look up studio.h and stdio.h in the MSDN library online and see what he finds. He then spent the next 10 minutes just blindly changing random parts of his code and compiling as he did not think the documentation was worth the trouble to search and that just asking other people around him would help. Problem is in some classes it is like the blind leading the blind. He would not trust me because to him I just made his errors worse even though I was putting him on the right track. The lab tutor eventually came around and told him to read the notes on how the build process works and that would explain why he only gets one error with an incorrect spelling of a header file and many errors if his C code is just got errors in it. It all boils down to the fact that he had not got the initiative to read the compiler error, look it up in the documentation. Of course if he had done the preparation for the session he might have been a little wiser.

ReggaetonKing

CRT! lol

@Random-Spirit: *sigh* I know how you feel man...

__________________
I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code!

bigguy

And it's not just with programming either. Some people want everything handed to them on a silver platter. I'll admit when I first started out programming, I asked for help with every little thing. I did read some documentation on what I was doing, but I just asked after reading it once, instead of trying to read it again and absorb the information and go from there. When I teachers aid at beginners networking class at my HS, I took over the class when the teacher was absent instead of callngn a substitute. I handed the students their manuals, told them the pages that the info was on, it even had color coded diagrams to show them how to plug everything in and set it up. I had two students try once and quit, they took an F on the project and even when I tried helping them they acted like it was my fault, that they had failed, because I didn't "go over the material like I should have" It's not that I didn't do my job, they just didn't give a rat's-ass about it. OS i understand where you coming from. I still ask for help sometimes, but not as much anymore, cause I understand most of the stuff I read now.

__________________
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heal that has crushed it. - Mark Twain

Destruction leads to a very rough road, but it also breeds creation.