funkey_monkey

Hi,

I am thinking of doing course in Java to beef up my CV/Resume. At present i work in Aeronautical Engineering doing mostly verification work to DO-178B Cat. A (the highest standard in this field). However, in this role i have been using mostly in house developed programming languages and therefore my CV looks a bit poor to those looking in from the outside.

I want to get into something a bit more mainstream and hence I have been thinking of doing eith C++ or Java. Now as there is no C++ courses that I can find which have accreditation I am thinking of opting for Sun Certified Java Programmer.

I have been quoteed a price of £1300GBP (roughly $2,500US) for course notes, access to a tutor, and exam fee. They apparently have a good rate of passes.

Is this a good option? Also, if there is any other way I could get my CV bulked up with commercial languages I'd love to know.

Thanks,

Ger.

Infinite Recursion

I was under the impression that how you learned a language did not matter, as long as you could demonstrate your knowledge of it. I would imagine most people here pick up languages on their own. For instance, I was never formally trained in C#, but its on my resume because I feel confident in my abilities in the language. If you already have an undergraduate degree, I personally do not see a need for certification. Otherwise, the certification would be a good approach.

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"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root."

funkey_monkey

I have a honours degree in Electrical & Electronic Eng & and Masters in Computer Science.
I have no real programming experience as I've mostly worked with in house languages in my job.

The recruitment agent I spoke to stated that as I had no commercial language skills or significant COTS skills I would be down the pekcing order for employers.

Seems like writing software to the highest standard in the avionics industry means nothing. I thought a sound methodology would mean more that knowing how to write programs badly in numerous languages...

Infinite Recursion

What languages did you use in your Computer Science curriculum? Are you still familiar with them enough to be considered functional?

I agree with you in that the methodology is more important than learning several languages. The only difference between your first language and all of the other languages is mostly different syntax and methods, which are easy to pick up once the foundation exists.

I also understand what its like to use proprietary solutions to projects at one job and have it mean nothing to the next potential employer because they do not even know what it is so they are not able to guage your ability in the more common languages, etc.

If there are not any langauges that you are comfortable with using, from your CS Masters degree, then certification would be a good route to take and from there you could branch into other languages if needed.

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http://jasonpowers.net

"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root."

funkey_monkey

I used Java in my CS course but API and OO was lightly touched on and I have no real experience of them since (over 6 years ago) so I am loathed to say I have knowledge. I don't like bullsh*tting about how good my skills are in it as I ain't touched it since uni.

Looks like I may have to invest in the course but it is a lot of money. Is it a worthwhile course - i.e does it hold any sway in the market and how difficult is it? anyone know?

DaWei

Your degrees say that you have been taught some applicable things. You say that you lack actual experience. The cert is going to say that you've been taught some additional things (more focused, which has good and bad facets). You're still going to be sans experience. I don't see a timely return on the investment. Admittedly, I haven't run an engineering department for 10 years. Perhaps things have changed. I would barely have noticed the cert, given the other credentials. Just my point of view.

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Abstraction doesn't make it impossible to write bad code; it makes it possible to write superior code.
Contributor's Corner: Grumpy on C++ Exceptions DaWei on Pointers

Infinite Recursion

I haven't taken the course, so I can't tell you how difficult it is. Although being a certification, I'm sure it will be fairly detailed. It will be a good idea to practice by writing a lot of code... prior to taking the exam, etc.

Honestly, for the money... I wouldn't bother with the cert, especially with your academic background. As DaWei mentioned... its nearly transparent when placed against your degree in CS. I also think you should talk to another recruiter as the one that mentioned you are low on the pecking order apparently does not base their opinions on what matters.

__________________
http://jasonpowers.net

"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root."

grumpy

funkey_monkey, your recruitment consultant is talking out of his nether regions. Some recruitment consultants, and you have obviously encountered one, will put you down the pecking order. They look for a bulked up CV because it means they don't have to actually have to apply brain-power to understand the skills applicants offer. And the type of employers who approach them are, at worst, software sweat-shops or, at best, are more interested in getting software out the door than they are in whether that software works correctly.

As to your background: your background means you are an engineer rather than a programmer, and verification work to DO178B Level A implies a high level of technical rigour, as consequences of software failure are catastophic. Companies who are doing such work have difficulty finding people with necessary skills and enough discipline to stick to required process, whether that is with the software development or verification of it. And, since such things are generally not taught before you get to a job, that implies you have an ability to pick up new skills. The recruitment consultant who is looking to place programmers rather than engineers will not like your CV because your value is not accompanied by buzzwords.

Rather than worrying about bulking up your CV with various programming languages, I believe you need to think long and hard about what type of work you want to do. In particular, do you want to do engineering (the requirements capture, design, etc) or do you want to increase the hands-on aspects such as programming? Do you have any application domains in mind?

If that means you want to do work that requires Java, C++, .NET, Oracle, PHP, ..... then go for those certifications and get the bulked up CV. If you want to do engineering, then either approach recruitment consultants who specifically seek engineers (they will actually prefer a thin CV if the contents represent engineering skills and DO178B Level A work definitely does that) or approach some engineering houses directly. Pick the right ones, and both the recruiters and the companies will be salivating when they read your CV. About the only thing you need to add is a short commentary on what your background offers in terms of engineering skill, ability to take on new work, etc etc.

DaWei

Recruiters know a lot about the marketplace and very little about the qualifications of their applicants. What they know comes from tests that someone told them are effective.

A recruiter will ask for a resume cut to one page. A headhunter will ask for a half-dozen pages. An intelligent potential employer will mainly want to talk to you.

If I were to interview you, I would present you with a problem peculiar to my particular goals, as atypical as I could make it, and ask how you would solve it. If you began to try to snow me, it would be evident. It would be a short interview. If you asked me if I had documentation describing this strange process, and my requirements, and told me that if I did, you could handle it, you would probably have a job. Your mileage may vary, as they say.

__________________
Abstraction doesn't make it impossible to write bad code; it makes it possible to write superior code.
Contributor's Corner: Grumpy on C++ Exceptions DaWei on Pointers

funkey_monkey

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the replies. i've got an interview tomorrow for a company in the telecommunications field called Intelliden - have any of you heard of them?

They are looking for software engineers and test engineers. I feel that as I have experence on boths sides of the fence - design and verification - that i'll be suitable for either role.

I'm still not quite sure as to what they are after - I'll find out more tomorrow. Although most of my current work is verifying that requirements have been fully met in software without incorporating any undesirable knock on effects, I have previously worked on design and thoroughly enjoyed taking the requirements/software problem and figuring out an implementation whic would either incorporate the change efficiently or rectify the reported problem.

Requirements capture and design would be what I would call a Systems Engineer - i.e. the person who knows how the overall 'thing' shall operate and function.

A mixture of Design and Systems work would be ideal. But anyhow, i'll wait to the interview tomorrow and see what becomes of it.

Thanks for the replies guys - I appreciate it.

PS - if any of you have heard of Intelliden I'd appreciate some comments. I am living in Northern Ireland and therefore applying for a job at their Belfast site.

FM.