ReggaetonKing

I just read an article about how this guy using just a text editor to develop his programs in. Using an IDE tends to make a programmer lazy and acustom to that way of developing, 'The Easy Way'. Just using an editor without all that fancy stuff makes you a better programmer and makes you learn more.

What are your thoughts about this??

__________________
I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code!

DaWei

It's primarily bullshit indulged in by people who want to convey a false impression of technical superiority. Here's my response to a similar statement on another forum:
That said, there are things one can fail to learn if one uses certain RAD aspects of a tool. By all means, learn those things, if you like. It may well pay off in the future. Just don't fool yourself into thinking that doing things the difficult, non-productive way will mark you as an expert to any but the uninitiated. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go borrow a high-heel shoe so I can drive a nail.

__________________
Abstraction doesn't make it impossible to write bad code; it makes it possible to write superior code.
Contributor's Corner: Grumpy on C++ Exceptions DaWei on Pointers

Darkhack

I agree in the sense that becoming totally dependent upon an IDE for everything is a bit much as is copying/pasting code as a means of programming. When you read articles about people saying that the IDE is bad, what they really mean is that it is easy for totally clueless developers to know how to click through menus but have no idea what the IDE is actually doing behind the scenes. Thats not to say one needs to know exactly how a compiler works (though it wouldn't hurt) to be a great programmer, but simply assuming that your IDE is a magic wand isn't the best approach either.

The IDE is a tool. It is designed to make the job of a programmer easier. I think most people will agree with me when I say that people who think the IDE is evil and should never be used are either total nut jobs that hand optimize code in assembly, or they want to show the world that they have a big dick and program in a shell on Gentoo. Not to say I don't love Gentoo, but I think everyone knows damn well what I am talking about and that a certain percentage of the Gentoo community falls into this description.

By his logic, we should all be building our own operating systems, cars, airplanes, and everything else that we use. It's just ignorance from some guy that wants to look like a know-it-all hotshot because he is too good for an IDE and probably a GUI too is my guess.

Jimbo

Like DaWei said, saying that using an IDE implies laziness is just bunk. I prefer an IDE if I'm working on a project with several files. It's just easier to work in. And it especially helps going between languages (e.g. C++ to Java to C# to something and back again), when you can use auto-complete as a refresher to what class it was that you need to accomplish task X. However, I do think that a programmer should be at least able to write code which will [mostly] compile in a text editor rather than depending on an IDE.

[edit:] I resent the Gentoo remarks
Darkhack | sed s/Gentoo/LFS/g

__________________
<insert disclaimer here>
<insert shameless plug for Visual Studio here>

Arevos

I agree with this. However, I disagree with the assertion that laziness is somehow bad; if laziness means trying to do as little work as possible, then that, surely, is one of the greatest virtues amongst programmers. Why do we write programs to do things that we could have otherwise done by hand? Why do we write libraries and frameworks to reuse code? It's because programming is a discipline where one attempts to achieve as much as possible, with as little effort as possible.

Larry Wall talks a little about this in Programming Perl. He defines laziness as the prime virtue of a programmer, along with impatience and hubris. He also talks at length about false laziness; the laziness that leads one to put off work until later, only to find that they've only increased their workload. A intelligent lazy person looks to be lazy over the long term, expending the least amount of effort over the greatest period of time.

Now, it may be that it is beneficial to learn how to program without an IDE, in case your IDE produces a lot of boilerplate code you don't understand. However, once you understand how the IDE is making your life easier, there's no excuse for not using it. Programming isn't about making your life harder, it's about making your life easier, and being as foresightedly lazy as possible.

Pizentios

i prefer ether gvim or just plan jane vi/vim at a command line for development. It really all about personal preferance. While i can see the use of IDE's, most for me have too many buttons/features/toolbars. I hate clutter, which is probably why i have yet to find a IDE that i like.

__________________
Profanity is the one language that all programmers understand.

Check out my Blog <---updated Nov 30 2007!

Indigno

All that using a text editor does is slow you down. The number of programs made that run perfectly on the first try is close to zero. It just isn't done, and it certainly isn't helped by using a program with no debugger, spell checker, or built in compiler. Yes. It is lazy. Laziness is good, though, if people weren't naturally lazy, we would never invent things. The only reason things get invented is because we want to make an easier way to do something. We would still be eating raw meat if no cave man had ever sat down with two sticks and rubbed them together until they burned. A little bit of laziness is a good thing, it drives us to want to get things done, and is more productive as long as you don't get sloppy.

__________________
Perhaps I should have a sticky topic for all of the times I "return" to this forum instead of a new one every time.

Arevos

Yep, I should add that IDEs aren't perfect, and there are legitimate reasons for steering clear of them. I don't use an IDE for programming in Python, for instance, simply because I haven't found any that are up to standard.

Also, Vim's text-editing features tend to put the built in editors of IDEs to shame. I'm not really anti-text editor, as my last post might have implied, I'm more anti-unnecessary work, and using a text editor because it is harder just strikes me as stupid. Using a text editor because it's better suited than an IDE is perfectly sensible, however.

DaWei

My aversion could well be due to staring at green characters on the black screen of a glass TTY for too many hours. I did have decent editors such as Brief and, on some systems, VI. The compilers were generally proprietary and work was done on a development station, no nice gp system with a cross-compiler. Fire up the editor. Write code. Fire up the assembler (or compiler). Wait. Fire up the Linker. Wait. Fire up the locator. Wait. Fire up the debugger. Work. If bad, goto 1. Burn the EEPROMs. Wait wait wait. Fire up the debugger. Work. Goto 1.

__________________
Abstraction doesn't make it impossible to write bad code; it makes it possible to write superior code.
Contributor's Corner: Grumpy on C++ Exceptions DaWei on Pointers

Iftikhar

IDE's are helping us to progress. They are not making us lazy. If you still want all the code you write, to write it BY yourself then it will take a lot of time. In this time one could do various other useful tasks. If you are learning a language you learn all aspects of it, no matter there is IDE for it or not. If you are not learning then definitly you can not program efficiently. You need to know the concepts. So learn and be an expert but use IDE's to make your work fast.

__________________
Iftikhar Ahmed Khan
For doing an experiment on programmer's mood please visit http://uxisfyp1.brunel.ac.uk/cspgiak