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programmingnoob · Aug 7th, 2006, 12:44 AM

i have several doubts regarding comp. logical design etc

i know that this forum deals with programming only. If possible, could anybody suggest me a place where i could find answers for comp hardware questions?
when i say comp hardware, i mean study-related questions ... like synchronous circuits etc ... not really questions that deal with motherboard etc lol

Jimbo · Aug 7th, 2006, 1:20 AM

I don't know of any other places offhand (there's always google), but you could ask here anyways and perhaps one of the more knowledgeable members can help

angry_asian · Aug 7th, 2006, 11:56 AM

overclock.net. mainly for building computer but there are insane ppl on who build motherboards and the like

DaWei · Aug 7th, 2006, 12:03 PM

"Synchronous circuits" doesn't mean anything without additional information. Synchronous serial IO, for instance, means data is sent at a regular rate. If there's not anything to send, then dummy data is sent. Synchronous logic (such as flip-flops) means that the transfer of things from here to there is accomplished with a synchronizing clock, rather than by the levels or edges of the data, itself. A synchronous motor is one that turns, without slippage, at the frequency (or a multiple thereof) of the power source (so long as the load is within ratings). As you can see, there's no solid question here to answer.

angry_asian · Aug 7th, 2006, 12:32 PM

thats interesting dawei. how do the flip flops work (how does a synchronizing clock transfer data?)

hoffmandirt · Aug 7th, 2006, 12:42 PM

There are many types of flip flops, but if the flip flop is synchronized with the clock then it uses the voltage from the clock to determine when to update the data based on the input lines of the flip flop. If the output is fed back to the input of the flip flop then you have your basic memory.

angry_asian · Aug 7th, 2006, 12:51 PM

cool! thats simple but genius!

hoffmandirt · Aug 7th, 2006, 12:56 PM

Yeah it seems simple, but I think one class that I spent a lot of late nights studying was my architecture class, however it was one of my favorite classes. You can find a better explanation of flip flops here http://computer.howstuffworks.com/boolean3.htm or just by searching google. There is a lot more detail than what I gave and I'm sure Dawei would be able to provide a more in depth explanation.

angry_asian · Aug 7th, 2006, 12:59 PM

thanks much hoffmandirt.

DaWei · Aug 7th, 2006, 1:08 PM

A flip-flop is a bistable device. This means that if you put it in one state it remains there on its own until you overtly set it to the other state. This is one way of making a memory element. It is not the method used in your dynamic RAM, since it can't be made at those high densities. Dynamic RAM is more akin to a capacitor that holds the charge you put on it. Since this charge is going to leak off, the states have to be periodically refreshed. This is why it's called Dynamic RAM, as opposed to Static RAM.

In simple implementations, one can take two devices and feed the output of each back to the input of the other. The output of each is also controlled by a separate input. If the output of one device is a logical zero, and a logical zero causes the second device to assume a logical one, then the zero from the first will set the second to a one, the one, which is fed to the first device, will cause no change, so the ouputs will be stable. If the second input to the first device is set to zero, it will force the output to a one, which will, in combination with the second input to the second device, flip the second device's state. This state will latch the state in the first device, so that the new, opposite, state is preserved until new overt actions is taken at the input.

In a synchronous device, these controlling inputs are not applied to the elements until a separate clock signal is applied. This clock may act according to its level, which is generally called "gating", or it may act only on the positive or negative edge of its signal. This is typically called "clocking."

Obviously, this is not a thorough treatise on the subject of either flip-flops, or memory. Your useless item of information for the day is that the term, core, which is widely used to refer to memory, comes from an old technique which used ferrous, toroidal cores to hold the state of the memory element. The magnetic field, which was set to a particular direction by the direction of current in the windings, would remain there until the windings were driven in the other direction. This kind of memory is non-volatile, which means it retains its state even when power is off. The last time I used it, about 40 square inches would hold 256 K. Yes, that's a K, not an M or a G.

Aug 7th, 2006, 12:44 AM	#1
programmingnoob Hobbyist Programmer Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 155 Rep Power: 3	hardware questions i have several doubts regarding comp. logical design etc i know that this forum deals with programming only. If possible, could anybody suggest me a place where i could find answers for comp hardware questions? when i say comp hardware, i mean study-related questions ... like synchronous circuits etc ... not really questions that deal with motherboard etc lol

Aug 7th, 2006, 11:56 AM	#3
angry_asian Hobbyist Programmer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: at my computer desk Posts: 138 Rep Power: 3	overclock.net. mainly for building computer but there are insane ppl on who build motherboards and the like __________________ my site: www.sreenathpillai.tk (Toggle Plain Text) #include<iostream> using namespace std; int a=1; int main() {while(a<=500, a++) {cout >>"I will not throw paper airplanes in class";} return 0; } #include<iostream> using namespace std; int a=1; int main() {while(a<=500, a++) {cout >>"I will not throw paper airplanes in class";} return 0; }

Aug 7th, 2006, 12:03 PM	#4
DaWei Resident Grouch Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,453 Rep Power: 10	"Synchronous circuits" doesn't mean anything without additional information. Synchronous serial IO, for instance, means data is sent at a regular rate. If there's not anything to send, then dummy data is sent. Synchronous logic (such as flip-flops) means that the transfer of things from here to there is accomplished with a synchronizing clock, rather than by the levels or edges of the data, itself. A synchronous motor is one that turns, without slippage, at the frequency (or a multiple thereof) of the power source (so long as the load is within ratings). As you can see, there's no solid question here to answer. __________________ Abstraction doesn't make it impossible to write bad code; it makes it possible to write superior code. Contributor's Corner: Grumpy on C++ Exceptions DaWei on Pointers

Aug 7th, 2006, 12:32 PM	#5
angry_asian Hobbyist Programmer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: at my computer desk Posts: 138 Rep Power: 3	thats interesting dawei. how do the flip flops work (how does a synchronizing clock transfer data?) __________________ my site: www.sreenathpillai.tk (Toggle Plain Text) #include<iostream> using namespace std; int a=1; int main() {while(a<=500, a++) {cout >>"I will not throw paper airplanes in class";} return 0; } #include<iostream> using namespace std; int a=1; int main() {while(a<=500, a++) {cout >>"I will not throw paper airplanes in class";} return 0; }

Aug 7th, 2006, 12:51 PM	#7
angry_asian Hobbyist Programmer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: at my computer desk Posts: 138 Rep Power: 3	cool! thats simple but genius! __________________ my site: www.sreenathpillai.tk (Toggle Plain Text) #include<iostream> using namespace std; int a=1; int main() {while(a<=500, a++) {cout >>"I will not throw paper airplanes in class";} return 0; } #include<iostream> using namespace std; int a=1; int main() {while(a<=500, a++) {cout >>"I will not throw paper airplanes in class";} return 0; }

Aug 7th, 2006, 1:20 AM	#2
Jimbo Battle Programmer Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Bellevue, WA, USA Posts: 773 Rep Power: 3	I don't know of any other places offhand (there's always google), but you could ask here anyways and perhaps one of the more knowledgeable members can help

Aug 7th, 2006, 12:42 PM	#6
hoffmandirt Hobbyist Programmer Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: PA Posts: 125 Rep Power: 4	There are many types of flip flops, but if the flip flop is synchronized with the clock then it uses the voltage from the clock to determine when to update the data based on the input lines of the flip flop. If the output is fed back to the input of the flip flop then you have your basic memory.

Aug 7th, 2006, 12:56 PM	#8
hoffmandirt Hobbyist Programmer Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: PA Posts: 125 Rep Power: 4	Yeah it seems simple, but I think one class that I spent a lot of late nights studying was my architecture class, however it was one of my favorite classes. You can find a better explanation of flip flops here http://computer.howstuffworks.com/boolean3.htm or just by searching google. There is a lot more detail than what I gave and I'm sure Dawei would be able to provide a more in depth explanation.

Aug 7th, 2006, 12:59 PM	#9
angry_asian Hobbyist Programmer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: at my computer desk Posts: 138 Rep Power: 3	thanks much hoffmandirt. __________________ my site: www.sreenathpillai.tk (Toggle Plain Text) #include<iostream> using namespace std; int a=1; int main() {while(a<=500, a++) {cout >>"I will not throw paper airplanes in class";} return 0; } #include<iostream> using namespace std; int a=1; int main() {while(a<=500, a++) {cout >>"I will not throw paper airplanes in class";} return 0; }

Aug 7th, 2006, 1:08 PM	#10
DaWei Resident Grouch Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,453 Rep Power: 10	A flip-flop is a bistable device. This means that if you put it in one state it remains there on its own until you overtly set it to the other state. This is one way of making a memory element. It is not the method used in your dynamic RAM, since it can't be made at those high densities. Dynamic RAM is more akin to a capacitor that holds the charge you put on it. Since this charge is going to leak off, the states have to be periodically refreshed. This is why it's called Dynamic RAM, as opposed to Static RAM. In simple implementations, one can take two devices and feed the output of each back to the input of the other. The output of each is also controlled by a separate input. If the output of one device is a logical zero, and a logical zero causes the second device to assume a logical one, then the zero from the first will set the second to a one, the one, which is fed to the first device, will cause no change, so the ouputs will be stable. If the second input to the first device is set to zero, it will force the output to a one, which will, in combination with the second input to the second device, flip the second device's state. This state will latch the state in the first device, so that the new, opposite, state is preserved until new overt actions is taken at the input. In a synchronous device, these controlling inputs are not applied to the elements until a separate clock signal is applied. This clock may act according to its level, which is generally called "gating", or it may act only on the positive or negative edge of its signal. This is typically called "clocking." Obviously, this is not a thorough treatise on the subject of either flip-flops, or memory. Your useless item of information for the day is that the term, core, which is widely used to refer to memory, comes from an old technique which used ferrous, toroidal cores to hold the state of the memory element. The magnetic field, which was set to a particular direction by the direction of current in the windings, would remain there until the windings were driven in the other direction. This kind of memory is non-volatile, which means it retains its state even when power is off. The last time I used it, about 40 square inches would hold 256 K. Yes, that's a K, not an M or a G. __________________ Abstraction doesn't make it impossible to write bad code; it makes it possible to write superior code. Contributor's Corner: Grumpy on C++ Exceptions DaWei on Pointers

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